Paying attention here!
Thanks for the tips guys
Serge
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| Black binding. Ebony, Plastic or Fiber http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=6923 |
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| Author: | Mike Mahar [ Wed May 31, 2006 1:00 am ] |
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I'm about to bind an A style mandolin (no nasty spiral). I bought some since ebony and was going to use that. I've never tried to bend ebony before and I'm a bit nervous about it. The stuff is .08 thick and I've heard that .06 is about a thick as you'd want to bend ebony. I could split it and glue it on in two pieces. I've heard that this is invisible. Considering all my options, what about plastic or fiber? I'm not fond of plastic bindings in general but black might be OK. I've read lots of reports of people having problems getting plastic to stick. Several of the techniques that have been reported: Duco cement, Rub with acetone then use tightbond, tape first and wick in thin CA glue. I've heard reports of all of those techniques working and failing. One think that I've never hard anyone doing is to use black fiber. LMI sells it in .06 and .08 thicknesses. This stuff is supposed to bend easily even dry. I know it is popular for purfling but is is hard enough to use for binding? I'm also going to bind the oval sound hole with it so I do have a pretty tight curve there to worry about. |
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| Author: | Andy Zimmerman [ Wed May 31, 2006 1:07 am ] |
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I use the black plastic from Stewmac up to 0.09 without any problems I dry tape and wick superglue.....also no problems |
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| Author: | Michael McBroom [ Wed May 31, 2006 1:09 am ] |
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I've used ebony to bind a couple of guitars. This was also back when I was still using a bending iron and not a mold. I'm not very fond of bending ebony, but I would definitely try bending it before resorting to a dyed or fiber substitute. I would recommend that you get a couple of extra pieces, first of all, because ebony tends to snap without warning, I've found. To bend it, I used a fairly high heat (around 320F) and a lot of water for spritzing the binding as I was bending it. I also found that clamping it (I used 1" C-clamps) to a piece of backing material, like shimstock, when making a tight bend, helped a lot. Best, Michael |
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Wed May 31, 2006 1:33 am ] |
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Ebony is a bit tempormental. But the good news is that if you snap it, you can CA it and never, I mean never, see the joing. Bend it like Hesh says in a Fox style bender and all should be good. I've used Black fiber for binding and don't like it. It bent like butter and glued great but under finish it takes on sort of a greyish tone. Unless you inted to paint it or somehow color it, I don't think you'll be happy with the outcome. |
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| Author: | Pete Licis [ Wed May 31, 2006 2:19 am ] |
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Mike, For my headstock, I was able to bend ebony binding thinned down to 0.06 (or 0.05?) completely around a 1" diameter pipe. The only way I found that worked was to spray the bindings and let the water soak in several times (keeping them literally wet for several minutes), then wrapping and sealing in aluminum foil (to keep the steam in), and using a piece of scrap sheet metal as a backing slat when bending at a very high temperature (probably 360 degrees or so - not sure because it was a relatively uncontrolled torch in a pipe, though I did try to make some surface measurements with a spot thermometer). If your ebony is homogeniously black, you may want to go with an easier black material, but if your ebony has some color and you can tell it's organic and wood, then in my taste, I'd go for the ebony. |
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| Author: | Mike Mahar [ Wed May 31, 2006 2:54 am ] |
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OK, I guess I'll try thinning it to .06. I have to use a pipe because I don't have a Fox style mold for this mandolin. It doesn't have a waist for the center caul to press into. So, I guess I'll just have to gird my loins, paint my face, and leap into the fray. |
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| Author: | csullivan [ Wed May 31, 2006 4:49 am ] |
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Hi Mike, I really hope to see your loins still girded and you face still painted on Sunday. Fray leaping will be optional. I have tried bending ebony for a cutaway and essentially ended up with some elegant black toothpicks. Since the curves of an A mandolin are fairly tight (relative to a guitar), I'd be prepared to try an alternative. I don't think the fiber is a good choice because it's not particularly hard or impact resistent. It only works well when sandwiched between wood or shell, as in perfling. If you use plastic, who will know? Once you finish solid black ebony it looks like plastic anyway. I have butted black plastic right up against ebony and defy anyone to tell which is which. The plastic can be tied in knots if you want just by using hot water or a heat gun used sparingly. IMHO. Craig S. |
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| Author: | Steve Kinnaird [ Wed May 31, 2006 6:17 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Mike Mahar] So, I guess I'll just have to gird my loins, paint my face, and leap into the fray.[/QUOTE] Good line, Mike. Just remember to leap with clean socks. SK |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Wed May 31, 2006 8:40 am ] |
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Just bent up with a student enough for the guitar, a florentine, and the beginnings of an armrest oand ribrest - these ones will need a little more touch up on the pipe - they all bent fine in the fox, blanket, good spritz of h2o, and all went well. |
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| Author: | RussellR [ Wed May 31, 2006 8:44 am ] |
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I have used Ebony a fair bit on Guitars, and have not had trouble bending it in my fox bender, but like Michael I have always struggled with it on a hot pipe. Never made a Mandolin so don't know how it would be on those tight curves. |
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| Author: | MSpencer [ Wed May 31, 2006 11:43 am ] |
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plastic Mike White Oak, Texas |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Wed May 31, 2006 1:59 pm ] |
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Just make sure you use a backing/support piece (shim stock, steel ruler, whatever steel as long as it can bend) behind the wood, go slow, lots of heat and a good amount of water and you should be fine. The support is the important part, without it, you will most likly crack the piece, but, like Paul W said, it will CA without a trace. Good luck. |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Wed May 31, 2006 2:08 pm ] |
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Paying attention here!
Thanks for the tips guys
Serge |
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| Author: | arvey [ Wed May 31, 2006 11:57 pm ] |
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I've used all three as most of my guitars are bound in black, but now ussually use plastic. Once it's finished you really can't tell the difference and plastic is easier. |
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| Author: | Kevin Gallagher [ Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:19 am ] |
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If it's the black color you're going for, use the plastic since it is so much easier and quicker to use. No bending, easy fitting and....black. I use Ebony becaue my customers want wood, but the plastic much easier and forgiving. Regards, Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:31 am ] |
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Macassar bends much more easily than Indian or African ebony, and darkens from the heat. |
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